The Anti-Agency Model: A Bold New Future for Marketing Services with Sara Nay

John Jantsch (00:00.834)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is very special guest, Sarah Nay, CEO of Duck Tape Marketing, somebody I’ve worked with. Well, I’ve known all my life, but I’ve worked with for at least the last 15 years. And we’re going to pull back the curtain on what I suggest is a bold new approach to how marketing services are going to be delivered. We’re actually calling it the anti-agency model. No, wait a minute. We’re an agency?

Sara Nay (00:03.394)

Okay.

John Jantsch (00:30.508)

And we’re calling it the anti-agency model stick with us because, it’s not the agencies that are broken. It’s the actual model that’s broken. And that’s who we want to talk to today. mean, AI is shifting the landscape. we all better get used to it. It’s here to stay and you know, how we integrated, how it changes, how buyers consume, how it changes, how brands, go to market is something that we have to address. have to evolve.

been doing this 30 years, we didn’t have the internet, we didn’t have websites. So if you want to stay in this game, you’ve got to continue to evolve. So Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sara Nay (01:08.168)

Thanks for having me on. I’m excited to dive in.

John Jantsch (01:10.904)

So all right, let’s explain from your point of view. How’s the agency model broken?

Sara Nay (01:17.046)

There’s two sides really that I’m seeing it broken on. And so there’s, there’s reasons that it’s broken for agencies and there’s also reasons that it’s broken for small businesses as well. And so to start with the agency side of things, you know, as you mentioned, we’ve been an agency for about 30 years. We’ve gone through a lot of the challenges of running an agency for one. It’s really difficult to maintain profitability as you scale up.

John Jantsch (01:28.012)

Yes, right.

Sara Nay (01:42.58)

It’s difficult to keep great team members and talent as you scale up. It’s difficult to meet client demands that they have and stay on top of all things. It’s difficult to be great at all the things that are in marketing. So there’s just a number of challenges within an agency. And as I said, we’ve been through many of them ourselves. On the other side of things for the small businesses.

We’ve worked with a lot of small businesses over the years where they’ve just rented out their marketing to different agencies and they had no idea what was happening or why it was happening and if their marketing was even being effective. And so there’s just a lot of confusion around marketing when it’s really not something that they owned internally. And so that I think there’s, again, there’s challenges on both sides, but the evolution of these different AI tools, as you mentioned in introduction, it’s made

bringing in marketing execution a lot easier for the small businesses. And so that’s the path that we’re going down.

John Jantsch (02:41.1)

Well, and I think that, that, you know, we’ve seen it for many, many years. Businesses are more than happy to abdicate their marketing, just like, I don’t, you know, here, do it all for me. I don’t get this stuff over there. You just do it. And I think that that created and does create potentially a great misalignment on like the incentives, both, on, you know, the, the, agency in a typical retainer is almost incentivized to do less, you know, for the money. Whereas the business is like, no, I need more.

Sara Nay (02:48.566)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Nay (03:06.752)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:09.518)

And so I think that there’s, that idea of just outsourcing everything, you know, really is starting to pull apart, you know, really the relationship on both sides, I think. So talk a little bit about how is AI disrupting in your mind? I mean, there’s no question that there are a lot of people jumping in and saying, I can use this tool to automate this and this tool.

heaven forbid to get rid of these people in my organization. mean, so there’s all this kind of pot stirring going on right now about like where AI is going to land. How do you see that disruption and kind of the, you know, we’ve always said marketing is a system, right? And so how is it disrupting the idea of marketing as a system and the traditional kind of way people are going to work?

Sara Nay (03:56.961)

Yeah. And so I’m seeing a lot more small businesses actually bringing marketing in-house because they’re replacing agencies with different AI solutions or tools. But I think there’s a major challenge in that. I think that you can be a lot more effective with relying on different AI tools as long as you’re thinking about them strategically.

John Jantsch (04:08.898)

Yeah, there is.

Sara Nay (04:17.174)

and you’re thinking about them in the right way. And so for me, what AI is doing for marketers, whether an agency or an in-house team is it’s elevating us. It’s allowing us to focus on things like strategy more effectively and be more productive in execution as well. But a lot of people are just bringing in these tools to their business and they haven’t thought about like, what are we actually trying to accomplish? Where is our marketing going?

Okay, based on that, like what tools should we bring in to not replace people as you you as you mentioned, but to elevate the current team that is in place.

John Jantsch (04:51.478)

Yeah. And, and there’s a whole lot of people hacking together a number of tools because they’re out there and you know, there’s 473 options to do every single thing I lean towards. And I, and I think you agree that, that there’s eventually going to be a full service model of AI. It’s not going to be DIY. I mean, there’s always going to be DIY people out there, but there’s also a lot of businesses are like, look, I don’t want to figure all this out.

Sara Nay (05:13.617)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:17.55)

You know, is there a way to install this to run my marketing? know, I, whether it’s us or Microsoft or Google, or, know, somebody I think is going to figure out that sweet, aren’t they?

Sara Nay (05:31.277)

Yeah, absolutely. But you know what you’ve been teaching for 30 years and what I’ve been sharing as well, like to figure out even that suite or the solution or the system that you’re going to use, like it all does come back to the marketing strategy piece. And so that’s what we’ve been talking to with a lot of our clients is these tools are great, these systems are great, but until you take a step back and actually understand like the marketing strategy piece.

then you can’t even start to think about what AI systems to bring in. And so I think that’s a really important piece to highlight, but where we’ve shifted with like our marketing strategy, I keep saying before we always created marketing strategy for humans and we still are. So we’re creating marketing strategy to educate our clients on what we’re trying to accomplish in their team and also get our team up to speed. But now we’ve layered on in the last couple of years, an AI element of that as well. So we’re creating a marketing strategy to now train humans, but also

AI effectively when you shift into execution. Cause I think that’s where a lot of people have gotten stuck over the years is they’ll create this marketing strategy and then nothing really happens. It’s this great looking PowerPoint deck that, you know, saves in Google drive and they put the work in, but then they just go back to executing on shiny objects. And so that’s the opportunity with AI. think right now is you still need to put that marketing strategy work into place, but then you can take that marketing strategy. can build out AI systems.

to now go from marketing strategy to execution and a lot smoother of a transition than it felt like previously.

John Jantsch (07:03.086)

So we are using the term anti-agency model and, you know, full disclaimer, we love agencies. It’s the model that’s broken. know, one of the things I’m very excited about is, is, as you know, I’ve been saying marketing is a system for many, many years. In fact, you know, my talking logo, the first talking logo I ever created for Duct Tape Marketing, when somebody said, so John, what do do for a living? I install marketing systems. That was a very…

Sara Nay (07:10.561)

We do.

John Jantsch (07:30.954)

innovative, almost edgy approach, certainly a differentiator, and to a large degree, hard to deliver on, truly, because a system seems like a tangible thing. And I do, one of the things that I’m the most excited about is, I think that this is going to allow agencies to move to, instead of just simply being a service provider, to being a system installer.

Sara Nay (07:43.257)

Yeah. Absolutely. And I agree with that system installer and also leaders on top of that as well.

we’ve, we’ve leaned into the fractional CMO model for years now. And so what does that mean? It’s coming in and, creating that strategy I was talking about, but then leading marketing. and so really I see the opportunity for agencies is you create the strategy, you stay in that leadership seat, fractional CMO, or whatever you want to call it. You then, you know, lead internal team on execution, but then you elevate internal team with these AI systems below them. And so it’s leadership.

you know, team members, actual humans, and then AI systems to elevate those, those humans to be able to be more productive and more efficient and do make decisions based on more research because they have that.

John Jantsch (08:46.382)

Yeah. And I think a lot of agencies will be excited about this idea because, know, we talked to a lot of agencies and, know, getting everything outsourced to them, you know, them having all the tasks and the growing task lists, you know, that’s sort of exhausting. That’s the part that people don’t like about running an agency. What they like, creating the innovation, creating the strategy, creating the go-to-market, you know, campaigns, but then the everyday, you know, kind of gets down to, you know, just being

Sara Nay (09:00.567)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:16.056)

Can I say grunt work? That sounds so terrible, but I think that’s how a lot of agencies start to look at it. So this idea of training and elevating internal teams, I think is going to be exciting, certainly for a brand, because they’re going to really up level their team. And I think their team is hungry for it in a lot of cases, but certainly also for the agencies. You know, when we’ve, you and I were at a conference and talked to a bunch of business owners face to face and started,

Sara Nay (09:27.662)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:43.616)

teasing out this idea of the anti agency model. And while we want to train a lot of agencies to do this model, I will tell you business owners, you can see their eyes light up. Because for one reason or another, a lot of them felt like, gosh, I’ve hired this agency, and then the next and then the next and, know, and I think that the model, as we’ve practiced it, you know, as, as just made it impossible to make a great, you know, route.

profitable relationship and so they’re onto the next round. Next one. So I think that it’s really tapping into what businesses, at least today, feel like they want. mean, how, do you feel about that idea of this being an exciting concept to the business that’s going to hire one of these anti-agency model people?

Sara Nay (10:20.77)

Yeah, I agree. It absolutely resonated. So at that conference, I did a table topic as a session. And so I literally had like two minutes to talk about what my table session was going to be. And after I got off stage, two people came up to me directly and handed me their business cards.

John Jantsch (10:34.798)

Okay.

Sara Nay (10:47.296)

And they’re like, we need to hire your team. And so that’s pretty good for a two minute. I wasn’t even pitching. was talking about the topic and I mentioned anti-agency model and this is why. And it really resonated with people because I think it has been a challenge for those people. they have, you know, in those scenarios, they had, you know, some junior marketers on their team, but they really didn’t have anyone leading them.

John Jantsch (10:47.918)

Right.

Sara Nay (11:09.962)

And so it fell onto the business owners to lead marketing and that’s not why they got into business. But then they also had been outsourcing to agencies over the years and they didn’t really have this internal asset that they were growing themselves. And I think another piece of this that we haven’t really hit on yet for the small businesses, the value I think is what’s your end goal? What’s your end game? Where are you working towards if eventually you want to sell your small business?

you need to have assets that are in your business that would come with the sale. And so if small businesses are completely outsourcing to agencies, all of their marketing work, they’re not building this asset. So what happens when they turn around and sell one day? Does the agency go with the sale? And so it complicates things. And so that really resonated with this audience as well. Like you have operations systems, and this is something you’ve been saying for a long time. So you have operations systems, you have finance systems. You also need a marketing system in your business.

John Jantsch (11:51.63)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (12:05.334)

that one day if your goal is to sell that comes with the sell and all of a sudden you have still predictable leads coming in the door. So I think that piece is really important to hit on as well.

John Jantsch (12:15.694)

Yeah, and over the years, I’ve heard a lot of brand owners talk about this idea of marketing is this black box. I have no idea what’s going on. we’ve long talked about the three C’s, clarity, control, confidence. strategy certainly brings a level of clarity. We’ve been doing that for years. And I think to a large degree, also some confidence, like, OK, here’s how I’m different. Here’s who I’m going after.

But that element of control is still really missing, I think, in a lot of cases. And I think that this really does, you know, by building playbooks inside of an organization, I think it brings a level of control that really everybody in the organization can understand because now, you know, marketing strategy is necessarily going to be taught to the entire team, you know, as part of them operating the system.

Sara Nay (12:45.002)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (13:08.592)

And I’m gonna just go on the whim right now and add another C. I think it adds consistency as well because a lot of times that’s where I see when small businesses are bringing in these different AI tools. Let’s say they bring in a chat GBT and maybe they get a team account and everyone just completely does their own thing on it. They have no SOPs, no systems, no processes in place. They have no formal way of training.

John Jantsch (13:13.452)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (13:31.17)

um, chat, GPT on the front end in place. And so all of a sudden their marketing results are just complete. Like one person might have great results. One person might be completely different because they’re all kind of doing their own thing. And so I think when you think about bringing in AI systems strategically and putting the work on the front end to do the training, it’s going to make the output for you, different marketing team members, a lot more consistent in terms of quality and staying on brand as well.

John Jantsch (13:58.702)

You know, I have an idea. Um, we ought to do a workshop where we teach agencies, consultants, fractional CMOs, how to actually develop strategy in a systematic way, repeatable way, and how to install this AI marketing system that we’re talking about. Of course, I’m being facetious. We are going to do that. Aren’t we? So you want to talk a little bit about the anti-agency model workshop. Give us a little preview of what we’re going to do there.

Sara Nay (14:03.586)

Okay.

Sara Nay (14:18.165)

Mm-hmm.

Sara Nay (14:25.963)

Of course. So we are launching a workshop in June. and it’s the anti-agency model workshop where it’s not just another training, where you’re not going to just sit there and take notes and be bored. Cause you can probably consume the information a lot faster these days with AI. And so it’s going to be really action oriented. And so it’s going to be four weeks long. They’re going to be 90 minute sessions, but it’s going to be more workshop focused. And so.

John Jantsch (14:52.28)

So you said four weeks long, mean four sessions once a week. Yeah, okay, yeah, all right.

Sara Nay (14:55.498)

Yes, sorry. Yeah, four sessions, once a week, 90 minutes each session. And in those, if you move forward and join in the workshop, you would also get access to one of the core AI systems that we’re building out and installing for our clients. You get a free month of access to that. So it’s a really special deal for joining the workshop. so over the four sessions, we’re going to essentially be teaching

members how to build out these AI systems strategically, how to move to execution with clients to really install it in their businesses and give ownership of the systems. And so it’s going to be a lot of rolling up your sleeves and getting dirty, getting in the tool and having actual application. But really excited about it. We’re talking about in the sessions is going to be focused on strategy, which we’ve talked about today. It’s going to be focused on AI systems, one core one.

It’s going to refocus on teaching how to lead with these different AI systems that we hinted on earlier, and then also how to execute as well. So those are really kind of the four main blocks. But we’re also going to focus on how to package price and position it to your clients.

John Jantsch (16:07.128)

Yeah, cause it’s not just training. mean, we’re literally going to give you a framework that’s a productized approach to, developing strategy, to training this AI system that is a full modular system that can be installed in a client’s business. So essentially, if you go through this workshop, you’re going to have, you’re going to have a product that you can sell for 10 to 15 grand right up front, but also then develop into long-term retainers that have you really staying in that leadership strategic role. So.

Sara Nay (16:10.614)

Yep.

John Jantsch (16:34.934)

It’s not just learning how to do something. It’s actually acquiring a license to do something that is really, think, going to be going to put you in the business of this new model or of the future, you know, pretty much after the course of a month of doing. So I think it’s again, I can’t emphasize that enough. You’re, you’re licensing a system as much as you are going through a series of training.

Sara Nay (16:38.225)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (16:55.615)

Yeah. And I would argue too, it’s a better offering for you as an agency, if you’re considering this, because it is elevating your role and your team’s role. But I also would argue it’s, as we’ve talked about a lot in this episode, it’s a better offering for the small business as well. And so it’s honestly, it’s a win-win.

John Jantsch (17:08.142)

100 %

Sara Nay (17:16.947)

I think because you’re really helping your clients take ownership of their marketing and you’re elevating your team as an agency’s role to more leadership, strategic direction, things that are enjoyable in the marketing space.

John Jantsch (17:30.616)

So a couple like FAQ type of things, who’s this? Who’s this really for? Who should come to this workshop?

Sara Nay (17:37.952)

Yeah. So few core groups, agencies that are looking to shift more into strategy and AI systems and building this out for their teams. I think this is really great for fractional CMOs, coaches, consultants, solopreneurs in the marketing space that maybe don’t even want to build out a team of their own. And so they really want to come into a company and they want to do the strategy piece and they want to stay on as a fractional CMO, but they want to guide the internal marketing. This model.

You know, in the past we’ve, we’ve certified and trained a number of fractional CMOs, but then they often got into building a bit of a small agency themselves through partnerships even because they felt like they needed to offer all of the execution as well. And so I think this shift allows you, if you are a solopreneur listening to this in the marketing space, it really allows you to stay a solopreneur if that’s your goal, because you’re be able to bring in these systems and train internal teams versus having to have all the execution on your.

John Jantsch (18:15.854)

Yeah. Do the tactics. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:36.152)

Tell me a little bit about who you think. So if I’m an agency or consultant, frankly, think, I, you know, I’ve, think somebody who maybe offers strategic consulting or financial consulting, you know, the price of this is going to be affordable enough that that might be a great extra service for you to, to bolt on because you know, AI is going to be everything for the next few years. So you might as well get, get in as, as a part of that. if I am this agency and I’m thinking, well, who would buy this?

Sara Nay (18:57.728)

Yeah. Yeah. I think there’s a few things that I’m seeing, you know, in terms of the businesses, I think for one thing is the businesses need to at least have one internal marketer.

John Jantsch (19:04.578)

You know, what, do you think’s the target for, you know, this? and I have some ideas on it because just, we’ve been, we’ve been obviously talking to small midsize businesses too.

Sara Nay (19:25.698)

place or be willing to hire an internal marketer. The conversations that we’ve had with small business owners, a lot of them are dabbling in AI, doing it ineffectively. They don’t have capacity on their team to really figure it out, and they also don’t have true marketing leadership on their team to drive that.

Ideal clients for this, think, are people that are dabbling in AI, that are still kind of figuring it out, don’t have true leadership, at least have some executors or implementers on their team. But honestly, I think a range of industries this is relevant for. so, you know, home service industries, B2B thought leaders, like it’s so it’s really, I don’t think it’s niche or industry specific. It’s just the people that understand that AI is here, understand that it’s going to help.

John Jantsch (20:07.758)

I

Sara Nay (20:13.086)

elevate their team, but they need help getting to that point.

John Jantsch (20:17.294)

Yeah. And I think that there is, I mean, we all know people that are into it and like want to talk about it all day long and geek out on all the cool things it can do, but probably 90 % of the markets out there going, okay, everybody’s talking about this. So I know that I have to do something, but I don’t want to figure it out. and I think that those are the folks that, that, that it’s the same people that need strategy because everybody needs strategy. But now I think you have a whole nother universe of people out there.

Sara Nay (20:34.601)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:44.77)

You know, I saw this when websites came along and social media and just digital marketing in general. It’s like, you had this whole wave of businesses that are out there going, I know I need this. Everybody’s talking about it, but I don’t want to figure it out. And so that really, that spawned the entire digital marketing agency, industry. and, and I think we’re certainly past that to where it’s all just marketing, but I think now we’re in this new phase of a lot of businesses saying, I know I need this, but I don’t want to figure it out.

Sara Nay (20:57.806)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:12.898)

And that’s the real opportunity that this presents. And I think it’s a real opportunity to differentiate your agency or your consultancy or your fractional CMO practice in a way that truly does empower you to deliver tremendous amount of value. And when you deliver a tremendous amount of value and you have a differentiation, you can charge a premium price. that’s, you know, that’s certainly, you know, where we’re heading with the folks that we’re working with. So.

Sara Nay (21:35.806)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:42.574)

I bet we should invite people to a web page where they can find out about this. It is dtm.world. So dtm like duct tape marketing, dtm.world slash new model, dtm.world slash new model. If you go there, you’ll find out all the details, the dates on the upcoming one, the price to get involved, you know, for you to actually then be able to go out there and sell those $10,000, $15,000 packages. And we’d love

to work with you and show you what I think is at least today, the future of marketing agencies. So Sarah, thanks for joining us again. And hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road in Boise.

Sara Nay (22:27.677)

Can I share one more thought before we close to say like it’s important? I’ve spoken to a number of different agency owners, consultants, fractional CMOs recently. And I think there’s two sides right now of people. I think there’s agencies that are diving in and taking action that will continue to compete. And there’s also agencies and fractional CMOs that are kind of like

John Jantsch (22:30.2)

Of course.

Sara Nay (22:48.382)

very hesitant and fearing AI and think that it’s going to replace them. And I think my last words of encouragement is, if you’re, if you’re hesitant or fearing AI, I think that’s normal right now. There’s a lot that’s changing and evolving, but I would really encourage you to dive in and to make this important shift because I do think it’s going to be difficult to compete in the future. if you’re not using what we now have available to us. So just wanted to close on that.

John Jantsch (23:14.23)

Yeah. Well, cut through the hype and, and figure out what’s real. That’s, that’s what all of this new, you know, new tools, new platforms are all about. So again, thanks for tuning in and we’ll see you next time.

Sara Nay (23:25.356)

Thank you.